The Recovered Life Show

Got it! Thank you for the correction. Here is the fully updated transcript for "Seld Main.mp3" with the spelling corrected to Dr. Kathrine Iscoe:

Voiceover: You're listening to the Recovered Life Show. The show that helps people in recovery live their best recovered lives. And here is your host, Damon Frank.

Damon Frank: And welcome back to the Recovered Life Show. So glad to be with everybody here today. We're having a discussion about self-acceptance, and I am so pleased to welcome Dr. Kathrine Iscoe to the show. Dr. Kathrine is a distinguished keynote speaker and researcher, media commentator—she does it all. Welcome to the show!

Dr. Kathrine Iscoe: I don't know about all. I definitely don't do my taxes, but yeah, I do a lot of things.

Damon Frank: She does everything but taxes. You know, I'm so glad to have you on the show, Dr. Kathrine, because I'm just—I'm thrilled about this topic of self-acceptance, because it's such an important topic in recovery. I know I have struggled with self-acceptance. You're an expert in this area; you speak about it, you write about it, and I first actually stumbled upon you on LinkedIn with a super interesting article that you had created all about this. So let's dive in. I want to get to the good stuff here. Tell us a little bit about yourself and this whole topic of self-acceptance.

Dr. Kathrine Iscoe: Yeah, sure. So, I guess personally, I'm addicted to shoe shopping for therapy. I love to sew. My healthy addiction is shoe shopping. But professionally, you know what I'm passionate about is trying to understand the paradoxes that are prevalent in this world. And I'll give you an example. How can we be so kind to other people, but when we talk about ourselves, we're so terribly unkind? How is it that oftentimes, it's the worst times in our life that often lead to the best times of our life? So, about two years ago, I had a bit of a very frustrating, very—I guess a time where you just felt lost. And interestingly, it was that feeling of just not knowing where my career was going, my relationship—we were having troubles. But interestingly, it was actually through the lens of self-respect where I was able to really see myself and the world around me more clearly. And that really led me into doing more research on self-respect. It's such a neglected concept. And one of the principles or the practices of self-respect is self-acceptance. And this is through self-awareness and self-reflection. So self-awareness is understanding who you are in any given moment, and self-reflection is being able to look at the past with self-judgment suspended. Very, very difficult to do. We're able—this really takes a lifetime to do, to suspend self-judgment, unfortunately. But also fortunately, I guess.

Damon Frank: You know, one of the things I really wanted to talk with you about is in recovery, one of the big issues when you, especially first get sober, is really coming to the realization that your life has changed. And I think it's very, very tough for people to, you know, really accept the fact that, you know, it's changed for them. They're no longer going to be able to drink, they're no longer going to be able to use drugs, and they're not going to be able to do it recreationally, they're not going to be able to do it for relief, they're not going to be able to really do it at all. And this causes a lot—you know, this causes a lot of problems for people because they just can't handle that, right? They just can't handle it. It's such a ramp up from where they were. And I think it causes a lot of relapse for people, you know, because they get into the situation and they realize, "Hey, you know what? I just can't handle where I'm at. I can't accept it." What's the process of starting to go through this, to start understanding what you can do in your life, what you can't do in your life, and where you maybe just don't have the power that you thought you did?

Dr. Kathrine Iscoe: Yeah, no, great question. So, I guess in regards to addiction, I can—I can definitely say I was addicted to food. So I started off when I was very young with anorexia. It was considered cool in my high school, like the goal was to eat so little that you fainted, which is ridiculous looking back at that now. But because I love food, eventually it turned into severe binge eating. And when I say binge eating, oftentimes if a person doesn't understand disordered eating, they're like, "Oh yeah, I overeat too all the time, especially at Christmas and Thanksgiving." I'm like, "No, no, no, no." And the way I explain binge eating is I remember when I was at the worst times where I would just lock myself in my house, I would picture—and this is horrible, this is so shameful to admit—that I would picture someone burning under a bus, and then a tub of ice cream. I would still eat the ice cream and not help that person. That's how bad it was. And the reason why I'm saying that is eventually, when I got out of it, looking back, the most important thing that I kept on telling myself is: that's what I did, that's not who I was, or who I am. And I think that moment of inflection—that that's a behavior I chose at the time to get through whatever I needed to get through at that time—yeah, that's what I did back then, and now I choose differently. And I think—I can't remember who said this—but when you know better, you do better. But it takes so long to let that, you know, it's—it almost feels like you have muck over you and you just have to slough that off. It's like that past that you just have to get through. It's very difficult to separate who you are as a person versus the behaviors that you chose as a person.

Damon Frank: Yeah, I—you know, the acceptance part of it, I think, especially in recovery, is really understanding the truth about yourself. And I like what you're saying, it's like, "Okay, it's not who I am now. It's not what I choose to be in this moment." But I think guilt, remorse, regret, sometimes just is like an anchor, right? It pulls you back in to this area of not being able to accept the fact of maybe what you've done, the life that you've lived, or the choices that you made. And I know, especially with recovery, you know, it doesn't have to be a DUI, it doesn't have to be jail, it doesn't have to be all of these dramatic things. It could just be wasted time, or maybe you didn't do something that you wanted to do. It doesn't have to be dramatic as like imprisonment or, you know, hospitalization or anything like that. It could just be as simple as, "I didn't achieve what I thought I could have achieved, or lived up to my potential." With this self-talk, how do you—how do you—how do you do that? How do you start changing that self-talk? You talk about how, you know, this food addiction that you had with disordered eating, you know, how—how do you stop, you know, as a professional, what do you tell people? How do you stop that from getting sucked back into the past about the way it used to be, and move into recreating the future that you want?

Dr. Kathrine Iscoe: Oh, big question! That's a great question. You know, there's a great quote, you know: "The curious paradox is when you accept yourself just as you are, then you can change." That's—that's hard, because you want to be someone else, right? It's interesting—the way I stopped my addiction to food, and it was absolutely an addiction to food, is I actually read this book, and now for the life of me, I'm not going to be able to remember what the name was. But the premise of that book was a concept called "the urge voice." And I'm sure there's many different ways of saying this. I believe in alcohol, it's something—yeah, I believe it's the urge voice. And it's listening to those conversations in my mind, and there was this voice that was telling me, "It's going to be your last time, just one more, no one's going to know, you deserve it, you've had such a bad day, just eat the tub of ice cream and then you'll stop after a halfway." You never stop at halfway. And it's recognizing that that voice—you have control over that voice. But it's the self-awareness part. Oftentimes, you just sort of let—like, you talk to that voice away, if you even notice it at all. And I read this book and I was like, "Oh my god!" And the reason why I'm saying that is sometimes it's just—you run into information, you run into a certain person, or you just see something and all of a sudden things get a little bit more clear. And I think oftentimes, we wait for that light bulb moment—like this Hollywood movie where you're an addict for so long, and then all of a sudden, like, this light bulb comes off and you're like—the clouds part. I'm like, that is BS, absolute BS. So I always say look for dimmer switch moments. Moments in your life where you just get a little bit of information, or you get a little bit of insight, and all of a sudden you get—you see things a bit more clear. And then the next day, it might go dark again. You might relapse, you might have a horrible day. It's part of the process. So I always say just look for moments where you get a bit of insight, say, "This is great, it means that I'm going forward." You're going to take step backs, that's just the process. And I think oftentimes, especially as high achievers—and I think we spoke about this briefly—we think we should be smart enough to be able to stop. And then we're even more horrible to ourselves, like, "We are so intelligent, we have great jobs, you know, we—we—we could probably win a game show and like, you know, with all like the Jeopardy. But why can't we stop this stupid behavior?" And that just makes things worse. It's so frustrating. It's so frustrating.

Damon Frank: Yeah, you know, I—I—I—it's interesting, because I always say like, people will ask, you know, what—the process of getting sober, what do you have to have? You know, they always say that recovery is not for people who need it, it's for people who want it. And I've found that to be the case, right? Like, matter of fact, I was—I was telling a buddy of mine the other day that the more resources you have, I think the harder it is to make the choice to get sober because you can keep kicking the football down the line, right? And hope that you don't die in the process of punting. But, you know, the harder it is sometimes. And I think, you know, I—I firmly believe that anything in life, willingness is that precursor, even if you don't have a way. But I found that acceptance is really the big push. Willingness is that awareness of like, "You know what? I don't know how I'm going to make changes, but I'm, you know, I'm willing to make the change." And then once that acceptance clicks in—I don't know if it's a spiritual thing, I would call it a spiritual thing, you know, Dr. Kathrine—where it kind of sweeps you up almost in a wave once you have that acceptance. It's like, "This is where I'm at." And not making this—and I want to ask you about this specifically, because I found this so helpful—stopping the commentary in my head about what it means. Like, "This is where I'm at. Well, it means that I didn't do this, or I should have done that." Sometimes it doesn't mean anything, it just means this is where you're at. How important is that for that self-talk to change? Because I find without that self-talk, you just get drug right back in to where you were.

Dr. Kathrine Iscoe: Of—of course. Like, imagine if you were saying what's—what's going on in your head to your best friend. Would you—would you expect them to stop the behaviors that you want to stop? The answer is no. I mean, unless they're like some kind of magician or—or Gandhi, it's not going to happen. So it's interesting you use the word willingness, and that's how I define confidence. Oftentimes confidence, people think it's like how much you like yourself. I don't define it that way. Confidence to me is trusting yourself to give it a go. That's a very big—I—I live in Australia, and that's what, you know, Australians say, like, "Give it a go, mate." That's confidence. Not knowing what's going to happen, not knowing if you're going to do it right, not knowing what the outcome is, but trusting yourself to be willing to give something a go. And I think that's critical—first understanding how can you create that in your head. What—what are the—what are the words that you can use to slowly switch your mindset in that way. But I think we have to be patient. The reason why is the way I explain behavior changes: imagine writing with your left hand your entire life, and then all of a sudden someone says you can no longer write with your left hand, you must write—write with your right hand. If you're not conscious or aware, all of a sudden you're going to be like, "Oh shoot, I'm writing with my left hand again." It's that self-awareness that really is exhausting. But I think again, this comes back to the paradoxes. Sometimes the most exhausting things that we do often lead to the greatest amount of freedom. So it's understanding—I use this analogy a lot with my partner. I went through horrible relationships, and this is because I—I felt absolutely worthless. And so oftentimes when you feel worthless, you rely on someone else to make you feel like you have some kind of value. And eventually, I just said, "Well, clearly I'm the common denominator." I said, it's kind of like the Shawshank Redemption—I'm not sure if you remember the ending of the movie where he has to crawl through all the excrement to get to paradise. That is to me recovery, whether it's recovery from food, recovery from, um, you know, being in horrible relationships. You have to go through that muck, that Shawshank, that excrement to eventually get to your paradise. But you want to give up every single—every single day, every—every time you—like, it gets too hard, you want to give up. And I think that is, especially if you're a high achiever, every time you, you know, you take that pull, you're like, "Shouldn't I be at the end by now? If I'm smart enough and if I'm such a great person, shouldn't I be done by now?" But it's—I don't know if I'm making sense here, but it's like that willing—like that willing—yeah.

Damon Frank: Absolutely. You know, George Snyder, who—who's come on the Recovered Life Show the very early times when we first started the show, said, "You know, the problem is a lot of people 'should' themselves to death, or they 'should' themselves, right?" And that is it. And you know, and one of the things that he always says is, "Well, who says that it was supposed to be like that?" We have these really, you know—one of the things I've learned in recovery, and it's just through life, Kathrine, is that like, I've realized that like, I sometimes have unrealistic expectations of myself and others that are based on something that—it's not real, right? Like, I have a—I'm very productive typically, and I—I'm one of those people that I—I think I'm more of on the high achieving side, but I will have days where I get a lot done, but for some reason, my interpretation of the story is that I haven't, right? And then I start, "Well, it should have been like that. It should have been..." Well, who's to blame for this, right? And then that little dialogue starts. Can you talk about how to set up really good expectations in self-acceptance? Like, how—how do you start to start to to start to build this? Now—now we've identified it, people are listening like, "Yeah, Dr. Kathrine, that's me. I have a—I have a hard time accepting things." How do you start the journey to go down the road to get better, you know, to get into self-acceptance, to have more self-respect for yourself? How—how do you start this journey?

Dr. Kathrine Iscoe: So, I'm going to say something that is perhaps controversial, um, but oftentimes, you know, there's these self-love mantras, like, "I love myself," and this—that doesn't work for me, and that doesn't work for a lot of high achievers because it feels fake and it just feels phony. So, if self-love mantras work for you to say like, "I accept myself just as I am," wonderful, keep on going. But especially for people like you and I, who are not only high achievers but perhaps are also people-pleasers as well—and this is something that I've identified, uh, you know, people that are—that want to achieve a lot, but also are very concerned about what people think of them—start saying the truth is a great place to start. Looking in the mirror and saying, "You know what? This is not my best day." Or, "Wow, I've look—I've looked better," or, "I've done better." For me, it's the truth, because you cannot lie to your brain. You cannot BS your brain. It's just impossible. The brain doesn't work that way. So I think, if—be respectful enough to not lie to yourself nor to your brain. Say, "I'm trying my best here, I'm really exhausted. I'm trying my best, and you know what? Today's actually pretty good day. Today's a horrible day. I, you know..." Be honest with yourself, because that—the greatest form of disrespect is being lied to, in my view. That to me is the greatest form of disrespect. So why would you do it to yourself? And that to me is the first step to self-acceptance, because that's what absolutely worked for me. To say, "You know what? I'm—shameful, what—whatever the case may be."

Damon Frank: I love that. You know, I—I also love the whole thing about the mantra, and you know, in—in recovery, there's a thing called gratitude chains a lot, where people will text what they're grateful—and there are maybe 50 people are all texting, you know, at 9 o'clock at night about what they're grateful for. And although I believe in the power of gratitude, it just comes across to me not genuine. For some reason, it just—it puts me off, right? And you know, and I've always had a hard time, even though it works, even though it does work, when I'm in gratitude, that somehow launches me into more self-acceptance. But I love what you're—you know, I love your approach on it and, and this changing of the self-talk, and just admitting the truth. You know, I personally, in my life, am not just in recovery. Like, for me, recovery, it's also recovery from life, right? Codependency, all these different things that come—that that come into life with people who are in recovery. They always have people that are codependent around them. Usually, many people have sugar addictions like I did, or, you know, food things, or there—there's other mental health things going on. Saying the truth, I think, is so powerful. And I think you're right on that, is like, the power of the truth is to say, "You know what? I'm not in a good place. I don't feel really great today. I don't really feel like, right?" Because this—this hype culture that we have now, this TikTok culture, it's so destructive because I can spend five minutes on TikTok—and I'm not really the TikTok demographic—but I can spend five minutes on there and I go, "Man, I'm a total loser. Like, what—what am I—what—what's going on with me?" right? Like, what's—like, why do I think this? This is like two-second, pre-scripted video of somebody's life. It's—it's absolutely crazy. So I love this idea of the truth, just stating the truth. "Hey, this is where I'm at. This is how I feel."

Dr. Kathrine Iscoe: Yeah, it's—it's funny. One of my—the first time I admitted that I was dealing with binge eating—and I remember this until, gosh, I think I was 26, and I said it to my girlfriend because I was just struggling so much. And I said to her, "Sarah, like, I binge eat when I stress—when I'm stressed." And in my head—like, you know, the thought—the emotions that you have prior to speaking out, during, after—you know, it's—it's a whole roller coaster—and all I could think about was she was going to call like, the—the crazy house. People were going to come, like, put me in a straightjacket and bring me into the hospital. And then she said, "Oh my god, I do that too." And the way I explain it is like when you have this massive bloating fart, and then all of a sudden you let it out, and then every—like, someone else farts too, you're like, "Oh my god, I'm not the only one!" It felt so good. And it's the truth. And when we talk about self-acceptance, you cannot accept a lie about yourself. It—again, it just impossible, it doesn't mathematically compute. And that was really one of the inflection points, one of the dimmer switches that when it went a bit up, it still got very dark afterwards, but that was like just a little rung on the board saying the truth. And I was like, "Wow, I can accept myself just as I am in that moment." In that moment. And it's kind of like—it's kind of like bricklaying to me is self-acceptance. It's like, you know, you lay a brick, it's a lot of work, and then you have to wait until the other brick comes down. And sometimes the brick falls off, and then you have to put it back on. That's self-acceptance. And I believe, personally, I think it's something that you do for the rest of your life. I don't think—I think it's kind of like the Holy Grail to me, is self-acceptance. You never really get there, but interestingly, you accept yourself along the way. But you're constantly changing. I don't want to be the person that I was yesterday, right? If I'm the person who I was yesterday, who—like, that—that to me is like the ultimate fear.

Damon Frank: Yes, exactly. You want to evolve and you want to change and you want to grow. And—and I love this—this idea about the truth. You know, we've been having a lot of discussions in the recovery community and we've had a lot of shows lately about this label of alcoholic. You know, and I define myself as an alcoholic, and a lot of the new people in recovery, especially people like in their late teens, 20s, the millennials, they don't like that. They don't want to—they think it's negative. But one of the things that I think is very powerful, that I think has been proven in 12-step groups is, by saying that you're an alcoholic, it's the truth. And there's something that—there a door that opens with the truth. You know, and—and I've seen—I've seen this. You know, I always say recovery would be great, 12 steps would be great if I didn't have to be powerless and my life didn't have to be unmanageable. If I didn't have to admit to that, and I could drink, recovery would be amazing! Right? But that's—but that's not—that's not the truth, I'm an alcoholic, right? Like, so just the power of really being able to say the truth seems to just spiritually, I find, just start unlocking so many doors. Right? So many doors. I have to ask you, what can really embracing self-acceptance do for a person going down this path? Because I'm sure, look, Dr. Kathrine, a lot of people look at it and say, "Man, you know, hey, I—I—I'm doing the sober thing, I'm trying to eat well, I'm—I'm at the gym, I'm trying to have good relationships. I have so much stuff on my plate. Do—is this really, does this have an ROI? Is this really going to work for me, self-acceptance? And what is the benefit of really doing this long-term?" Can—can you dive into that a little bit? Because I find—I'd love for people to kind of understand what happens when you're really able to embrace this.

Dr. Kathrine Iscoe: Oh gosh, it's—sort of what I was saying at the beginning, like the paradox of—sometimes the most frustrating and difficult things in life lead to our freedom. I'll give you an example of this. Two years ago, when I was saying that I was just going through that struggle where I didn't feel like I was myself, and you cannot accept if you're not being the person that you are. So two years ago, got on a plane, went back to see my parents, and my dad and I were talking. And he reminded me of this quote from Shakespeare: "To thine own self be true." And this is something that he would tell me, you know, for the past 20 years. As a teenager, you're like, "Dad, you're so weird." And eventually it stuck. It stuck so much that I got him to write it down on a piece of paper and I got it tattooed on my arm. So it's there every single day. My dad is constantly reminding me to thine own self be true. Because oftentimes when you're—or at least for me, when I was in that state of addiction, I wasn't thinking about myself. I was thinking about what other people thought of me. Were they thinking of me? Probably not. But to thine own self be true and self-acceptance, all of a sudden, you go from being a passenger on the bus to being the driver of the bus. So when it comes to purpose, when it comes to passion and pride—those are the three things: purpose, passion, and pride. That's self-respect. And that is what self-acceptance can truly do when you accept yourself in the moment, in the future, wherever your life is going. To me, it's the most liberating thing that you can do.

Damon Frank: How has embracing self-acceptance in your life personally, in the life of some of your clients, what— what kind of changes do people see on the outside?

Dr. Kathrine Iscoe: I'll tell you the exact moment actually, where I realized I was myself. I was working—working with a coach, and I just felt like this emotion bubbling up, and I just started balling. You know the kind of balling where like, just snot's coming out and like, you—there's no tissue. Like, that could ever compensate. And she said, "What's going on for you?" And I'm going to actually cry when I'm saying this. I said, "I just realized I can finally be me." And it was just like this cathartic weight that just fell off me. And all of a sudden, like, it's—it's kind of like—you know that, I can't remember the movie, it was like black and white and then all of a sudden you can—it starts, all of a sudden there's color. All of a sudden, some—everything's looks different. You—you walk prouder. You start to speak what's on your mind. And that's when actually my keynote speaking really started to take off, because all of a sudden I wasn't just, you know, being a robot on stage as a PhD, you know, saying what, you know, corporations wanted me to say. All of a sudden I was speaking from the heart. Connections happen. And that's what I see with the people around me. You know, the last keynote I gave, someone just messaged me. They said, "I finally realized that I can go for a higher position in my company." She jumped about like five levels. So, the reason why I'm saying this is sometimes when you get those moments of like, "Oh my god, I can just be me," your career opens up, your profession opens up, relationships open up. You know, it might be like, "Wow, I don't actually have to rely on this person anymore, I can finally be me and we can actually be two separate people in a relationship rather than depending on each other." You know, all these things open up and you really start to see the world in color rather than black and white. That's the best way I can describe it.

Damon Frank: You know, I love how you said that because you kind of put into words what I have seen a lot in recovery. And, you know, some of the experiences I've had, especially working with, you know, younger men, that when finally they're at a place where they give up and they say, "I really just don't know who I am." I'm like, "Okay, now you're playing at the big boy table," right? The big boy, girl table, like, okay, now things are going to take off for you because you were finally beat—you finally were beaten to submission enough, you beat yourself up enough where you finally just gave up and you said, "I'm willing to really accept where I'm at, and that I'm willing to receive." And I think kind of what you're saying here—and tell me if I'm wrong about this, because I don't—I don't want to put words in your mouth—but it seems that self-acceptance really kind of unlocks that receiver door, because when you are finally at a place where you don't feel you have to be somebody else, feel you have to please somebody else, you can just be you, and be—and I'm going to add something else, not just be you, but be comfortable being you, I think that's right what you're saying. This is when things really start to take off.

Dr. Kathrine Iscoe: 100%. I mean, I remember in relationships when I first moved here, I mean, I was 30, single, um, you know, I was addicted to food, still addicted, you know, I got involved in drugs, relied on alcohol, and I remember being in this relationship and he liked cricket. I freaking hate cricket. And I would just say, "Oh yeah, I love cricket, let's like watch cricket for 8 hours a day." I freaking hate cricket. And the point being is, is that that's when I didn't accept myself as I was, I was just letting someone else define who I was. And of course, we go through this when we're adolescents, you know, this is part of the whole thing of growing up, you're trying to figure out who you are. But not when you're 30. When you're 30 and relying on a guy to tell you whether or not you like cricket, that's when you have to start questioning yourself and saying, "Okay, clearly, I need to do some work." And that's a really hard thing to do, isn't it? So then all of a sudden, when you are who you are—and this is not, you know, walking into work wearing like, you know, naked or something like that, disrespecting others, still being respectful of social situations—but all of a sudden, you start having conversations that are true to you. An example is, you know, you're in a conversation, "Oh, everyone likes green." You can say, "Well, actually I don't like green, I like red." And obviously that's a very benign example, but you can see, you know, when it comes to innovation and creativity, when it comes to your purpose, this is how we stay as individuals. We aren't this like, copycat society where we're just all of a sudden just melding into one. And I think that's the most beautiful thing, you know. This—people call me quirky and they're like, "Oh god, isn't that an insult?" I'm like, "Hell no! I love being quirky, I love being my weird self." And that's part of self-acceptance, is to understand that the most important opinion is the one that you have of yourself. This is the critical thing. This is the most critical thing.

Damon Frank: Absolutely. You know what? I just—I absolutely love that because it—it—it—it is about that relationship with yourself and that conversation that you're having. This has been such an insightful time together, Dr. Kathrine. Um, you know, we're going to put links on how people can reach you. And, you know, I—I—in the show notes, guys, so if you want to get in touch with her, definitely click on that link. We'll put all of her information in the show notes. I kind of want to leave with this. I mean, I'm sure that people are listening to this, and a lot of what you just described is, you know, really codependency, you know, which I think a lot of people have, is not really knowing, they don't even know what they like, right? Um, because, you know, it's so been about other people and fixing themselves through other people and then trying to fix themselves, and people are just lost. You know, if somebody's listening to this, in closing here, Dr. Kathrine, and they're like, "You know what? I think I want to take this journey to kind of find out who I am and find out self-acceptance, but I'm really scared of what I might find out about myself." What would be your message to them?

Dr. Kathrine Iscoe: I think you respect yourself enough to make your dreams a reality, and respect yourself enough to not give up on those dreams. And I think that's what's going to get you through the process. I think the greatest fear often leads to our freedom. Uh, so it's understanding and looking at that fear and perhaps even frustration, and perhaps even anger through the process. I know that I dealt with a lot of anger when I was going through recovery, which is very hard to do as a Canadian by the way, because I think we're genetically modified to not be angry. But it's—it's that process of just respecting yourself enough to make your dreams a reality.

Damon Frank: Oh, absolutely love that. Such great advice. Thank you so much for coming on the show today, Dr. Kathrine Iscoe.

Dr. Kathrine Iscoe: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.