The Recovered Life Show

Speaker 1: There are a lot of people that say, you're not sober. You're just substituting one drug for another and you're trying to work a program and your sobriety is dirty. It's not, it's not real. What do you say to that?

Singer: I held the weight of the world in my hands. But I let it go. Now I understand. I found a way out of the life. I'm living my best recovered life.

Announcer: You're listening to the Recovered Life Show. The show that helps people in recovery live their best recovered lives. And here is your host, Damon Frank.

Damon Frank: And welcome back to the Recovered Life Show. We have got a great episode for you today. Listen, I rarely hear about a topic in recovery, in sobriety, amongst people who are sober, more lately, that's been more controversial than MAT, Medically Assisted Treatment. And I've wanted to do a show on this forever because I think there's so much misinformation about MAT, and I wanted to talk about the pros and cons, but I wanted to find somebody that really knew what they were talking about, that's really worked in the MAT field with people and understand it. So I am so thrilled to bring up my guest, Judy Atchison to the stage.

Judy Atchison: You got it.

Damon Frank: I got it. You know, I'm the worst on last names, so I apologize, Judy. Judy is a therapist and she was so kind to come on today and talk with everybody here in the Recovered Life community about Medically Assisted Treatment. And you know, I'm going to say right off the bat, Judy, you know, I did a pre-call with you because I was so concerned about this topic. You know, and people think it's a substitution, they think it's not sobriety. There's so much confusion about it. So I want to just have you dive into this like to just say, you know, welcome by the way, thank you for coming on. And what is MAT? What is this? What is MAT?

Judy Atchison: Well, first off, thank you for having me. And second, it's been around forever, okay? And that's something that we, I think that's why it has such a bad rap because MAT way back when in the 1970s was when they started the clinics, the methadone clinics. And when you're on that type of harm reduction, what's happening is you have to go pretty much every day. You have to stand in line basically. You have to go early in your day. So they normally start to dose at four and then they're done at like six. So that is what we all know of what harm reduction is. However, it's so much more than that. And the stigma of those clinics I think have continued and have been applied to what we currently have. And what we currently have are some fabulous medications that treat the addiction. Because addiction is a disease. Oh, let me just really quick, I stutter. I've stuttered my entire life. It is something that at first used to hold me back, but being in recovery myself, I know that it's these pieces about me that make me sometimes strange, that make me me. So that's what that is.

Damon Frank: Absolutely. And you know what? Because I'm dyslexic, so between the both of us, we'll get through this. That's what I'm telling Judy, between the both of us, we'll get through this. You know, Judy, thank you for mentioning methadone because I thought it was just for people who were addicted to heroin who could not get off of heroin and it was just methadone. It was just that, Judy. And I have totally woken up to this over the last year or two. It's not, right? So MAT is used for all types of drug addiction. Getting off of drugs. So what is it used for? What types of drugs are people addicted to that end up going on the MAT program?

Judy Atchison: Okay, so first, the first one that people know about, that would be the opiate class. Now the opiate class is pills, that's heroin, that's fentanyl, that's all of the stuff that's created and brought into the country. So we have the medications that can either block the receptor in your brain or can fill the receptor in your brain. And it's very complicated. I'm not a doctor. I've worked within a MAT clinic for six years. I have had quite a bit of training, but I'm still, you know, I'm not the expert.

Damon Frank: Sure. And I'm also going to say, Judy, you know, one of the things that we wanted to say, and they'll probably see it flash on the bottom of the screen is, you know, we're not doctors. We're not trying to prescribe anything. This is more for just educational purposes for people to look at all the different angles and for us to really, you know, take a look at this about what actually is MAT and what is right. To just kind of dispel some of the myths. And so like, you're just telling me so it's all different types of drugs that people might be addicted to?

Judy Atchison: Yes. I mean, so it can be used for, there's a wide range. It can be used for kratom. It can be used for, some people, Naltrexone can work for crack cocaine. It can be used for heroin. It can be used for pills. It can be used for the alcohol. And so there's multiple different drugs that depending on what disease you're struggling with, that's the drug that would match.

Damon Frank: Now is this just a rehab thing? Because one of the things that people say is like, all right, they're getting turned onto this because there's maybe been a physical intervention, right? And this happened because this is a harm reduction thing. People are out there, maybe they're on fentanyl. I've heard this a lot with meth lately too, stimulants, things like that, that there's this big harm reduction. They're pulled in. Is this used in detoxing people or is it used after they're detoxed?

Judy Atchison: Typically, it's used after they're detoxed and it's not just used in clinics. It's not just used in hospitals. There's many primary cares that offer this more than you know. And there's been a push over the last four years to really get more of the primary cares involved because, and that's where I worked for many, many years because that's who you go to the most. So there are many out there that can prescribe the entire range of these harm reduction medications after you detox. So detox, totally different class of drugs, all different kind of things. This is harm reduction after you go through the detox phase.

Damon Frank: And so let's talk about that a little bit because I think as you go through the sobriety journey, you're going through the detox. People know that detox obviously is, you know, a safe detox, making sure you're medically supervised. You're going through, many people go from there into some sort of inpatient situation where they're held for a period of time, observed. They're going through, they're starting kind of the recovery process about what they have to do and they're put on meds through a doctor, through MAT. Now, here is my question because this is where a lot of the misinformation comes, right? There is something that people say, well, they're just not tough enough. They're just not like you or me or anybody who just said, we're going to just go cold turkey and they need a crutch. And they're just putting everybody on it because they need a crutch to get sober. And I know people right now are going, yeah, I feel that way because I know I've met a lot of people who feel that way. And honestly, I'm going to be really blunt about it, Judy, I kind of felt that way too, because I didn't really understand it. Can we talk about this in harm reduction? Because I don't think people understand what harm reduction is really. I don't.

Judy Atchison: I agree. I agree. And I, and with you, being in long-term recovery, I was in the camp of, you know, they just need to be stronger. You just need to, you know, pick yourself up and quit. And after learning about it and really seeing how it changes people's lives, that is why I believe in it completely. So harm reduction is the fact that when you have the disease of addiction, okay, there are prescriptions that you can take that helps to keep it at bay. That's what harm reduction is. And harm reduction is the same thing with a person who has Type 2 diabetes. They take the insulin or whatever they need to maintain their health. That is what these prescriptions are. They are something that is given to maintain the recovery so you're not in the active state.

Damon Frank: Okay, so this is important because, you know, I have worked with people in the past, Judy, and one of the things that we discussed before the show was how I had worked with somebody who had been addicted to meth. And a year later, literally, he was still having a really, really hard time. And this guy would go on and off, on and off. He would have times of sobriety where he would be sober in his system, but his body was having these huge reactions, right? And I'm hearing from people that are on things like meth or heroin or anything like that, when they're coming off of the drug and then they detox and then they go into the inpatient and then they get out and they're on medically assisted treatment, it reduces much of that. Is that true? Because you see people really struggle more, some people struggle more than others with the physical stuff. It's just the truth. It is. There's some people who can shake it off and they're okay in 30 days. There's other people who do not, I've seen do not shake it off. And it's more than just a mental game. It's a physical game.

Judy Atchison: Absolutely. And when you say meth, you mean the crystal meth? Okay. Um, let me gather my thoughts here. So just like anything else in life, we all experience things in our own way, okay? With the disease of addiction, we know that there are receptors in our brain, okay? Because what these drugs do is they actually go into these receptors in our brain and they help to fill it. What buprenorphine, which is typically what is used, buprenorphine is actually filling that so you don't crave the other thing. Okay? Now what that is doing is that's helping you to decrease the cravings that your body and your mind are currently having. So it's a tool. It is not the only tool. It doesn't solve. It's not, you know, you can't go on MAT and just be healed. No, no. There's the cognitive behavioral stuff. There's I mean so many different aspects of it. But this is a tool that is used to decrease those cravings to help you stay safe. I want you to think of harm reduction is if you go to treatment and you're clean for 30 days and you go back out and you shoot heroin, there's a really good chance that you could die. So being on these prescriptions is a way to reduce the harm that could happen.

Damon Frank: This makes sense because I think that because of the availability and potency of a lot of the street drugs out there that are out there. I mean drugs have always been dangerous and pharmaceutical drugs can be dangerous. Like anything could be dangerous if you use it not correctly. But the thing is the street drugs are so potent now. And you know we hear about tranq, we hear about all these things that are coming out, especially with the younger people. And like we hear about this and as a sober person, I'm like, oh, this is scary because there's not a lot of chances for error, right? And I know alcohol is super dangerous and I, you know, I'm a recovered alcoholic and you know, you're in recovery too. So like we know that it, alcohol just the stuff that the Super Bowl ads, the stuff they're selling the Super Bowl ads is super dangerous in the hands of certain people. But the thing is the tapering off and the relapsing side of it until people really kind of click into a recovery program, I see it working in harm reduction. I really do. And I like your Type 2 diabetes thing. But I have a question about it too because a lot of people are saying, well, that's it. It's a substitution because I'm going to be on it my whole life. Because I always thought when people went on methadone or when people went on things like, that's it. That they have chosen that they are going to be on a drug supplement for the rest of their lives.

Judy Atchison: Okay. Well, you can look at it that way and there are people that do stay on it. The majority of people that I have experienced and things that I've read don't want to be on it long, long term, okay? Because they're not high. Yes. Can these drugs be abused just like every single drug in the world, including alcohol? People abuse them. Do they, they are sold on the street, blah, blah, blah. Okay, not all of them, but you know, a few of them. So the goal is to keep you safe. Creating that program of not drinking, drugging, whatever you do. Now, in a perfect world, you're on it for six months, nine months, a year, maybe two years, maybe three years. The beautiful thing is right now they are, they have come out, it's been out now for I don't even know how many years now, maybe four or five, is this actual shot that gives you the buprenorphine slowly over a one month time. And what we're seeing is this is how people are coming off of the subs. So they were on subs down to 2 milligrams a day for months and months or even years or half of that or a quarter of that because the strips can be split. And so now it's very complicated. So I'm not saying I know anything about because I know the amount that you're on...

Damon Frank: And it's different for everybody, right? It's going to be a different thing for everybody that's on it. Yeah.

Judy Atchison: But what I want to say is because we know that the medication works, we also know that we can help whoever is on it if they want to to come off of it. So it doesn't have to be something that you do long term. Is the withdrawal hard? Yes. There are drug classes, the SSRIs, the SNRIs, withdrawal is just as bad.

Damon Frank: Okay, so this is not something that somebody has necessarily is going to, the majority of people that are on MAT are getting off it. So like if you use the Type 2 diabetes thing that you said, is this the right thinking about this? That somebody might have Type 2 diabetes and then reverse it because they're eating better, they're doing different things and they might be on like a Glipizide or something like that for a period of time. But then as their blood sugar moves out and they no longer need it, then they're off of it. And then they're just about their lives and managing that diet and exercise. So it's very similar.

Judy Atchison: Yeah. And they have to manage it, you know, they can't go back to eating the way that they ate. They can't go back to not being active. Just like for me, I can't go to a bar and hang out. I have years and years and years and years, but it's just not happening. I'm not going to trigger myself. I'm not going to go to a hospital and hang out and see all the medications there. No. It's the same thing.

Damon Frank: Yeah, so their recovery path, and this is somebody you worked in MAT, so I'm saying this out here because I hear from people it's like don't bring people up on the Live, don't talk to people who are on subs, they're not in recovery. You know, we're going to get a little bit more into that when we come back from the break. But I want to hear from you that they're working a recovery program just like everybody else. Is that true? So nothing changing besides them being on the subs.

Judy Atchison: Right. And just like everything else, some people are on MAT and they don't do the rest of the work. So they end up having to stay on MAT.

Damon Frank: Okay, so like 80% of the people that get sober. Right?

Judy Atchison: Yes. Right, right, right. But it's a matter of you have to make the behavioral change. You know, recovery is about changing the way that we think and respond to ourselves and to how we feel. So that's what it does.

Damon Frank: I love this. I love this. When we come back from the break, I'm going to answer the big question here. We're going to talk about the big question everybody is thinking because I know people are thinking this right now. And are people who are on MAT sober? If they are, are they sober? We're going to answer that question. What a lot of people tell me on the TikTok Lives, Judy, and you're somebody who's in recovery, I'm in recovery, and we're going to answer this right now. There are a lot of people that say you're not sober. You're just substituting one drug for another and you're trying to work a program and your sobriety is dirty. It's not real. What do you say to that?

Judy Atchison: Well, I disagree because being sober, being clean is not about the drug, the drink, you know, it's not about that. It's about the behavior. So if you are taking care of yourself, not doing drugs, not acting out, making changes in your life, going to therapy, going to 12 Step world, going to church, whatever it is, if you're making that behavioral change, then you're clean. No matter what medications that you are on. How many times have we been in the rooms where there are people that have been clean for 20 years, but they are cheating on their spouses and they are selling things that are not drugs, but they're not sober. They're not clean because for me, my perspective is when we're sober, we are living like you say, our best life.

Damon Frank: Yes, yes. And you know, I'm glad you said this. I'm glad you said this. It isn't all about that. Now here's the thing. When we say this, people go, well, what about California sober? What if you're smoking marijuana and you're also... That's different. And you know, that is different. And I'm glad that you said this because I have had people in the TikTok Lives, Judy, where they will literally bully people and I won't have it because I'm like, you know what? This person, I've seen them go off of the subs, I've seen the last three to six months they're going off the subs and they're working a program, they're doing everything that they can do, way better than a lot of the people who are commenting, right? And I love that comment here. And also, I think let's shatter this other thing. That when you take the subs, you're high.

Judy Atchison: No. Okay. That because this is what people think. If you look at the science, okay, if you look at what's happening, how it goes into the brain, and I'm not a doctor, but I do understand that when it goes in there, it's helping to block the opioids that give you that high, right? We take drugs because once they hit our brain in the proper way, we get this hit of the endorphins and the dopamine. What's happening is that's blocked. So might you have a high type of feeling? Yeah, you could at first. However, it tapers off. It does not last. Just like any other drug, not any other drug, but drugs that are prescribed for anxiety can make you sleepy, make you kind of high feeling, right? And after some time, you're fine. You do not get high.

Damon Frank: And you know, and here's the other thing. I hear this a lot and you know, and I have been involved in 12 steps for a long time. I know you have. And therapy and other things, spiritual practices and other things. And I think I understand where this comes from because I think they see celebrities come out and say that they're sober, but yet they're smoking an ungodly amount of marijuana and they're not sober. They're high all the time, right? And I think what people think with MAT is no, they're taking this and they're getting high off of it, you know? And I think that they're walking around high all the time. And I found that this is not the case. This was my thought. That they took it, but that's not what's going on. It's blocking the neuro receptors in the brain so you're not getting those big, huge craving hits that you normally would coming off of big drugs like that.

Judy Atchison: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean people, I hope people understand if you don't take anything out of this, I hope you take out the whole concept of there are people on MAT that are judges, that are doctors, that are living their lives because they're taking this prescription that helps them to stay clean and sober. Helps them to make that behavioral change. It's not changing it, but it's helping it.

Damon Frank: So let's talk a little bit about coming off of the MAT program with people. I, one of the things that I dislike about MAT, and I'm going to say it, I'll say it right here and in the after the show, Judy, you and I are going to get more into this a little bit. But I told you one of the things that gives MAT a bad rap is a lot of people on TikTok and YouTube and Facebook and Instagram dosing what I call drug seeking activity. They're acting like an active drug addict doing it as if they were taking a street drug. I think this is, one, this is, it doesn't mean anything about your sobriety or not. It means that maybe your sobriety is in trouble to be honest if you're looking at that. Because if you're doing that, I just look at that as just wrong. From a sober standpoint. I know that might seem judgy, but I'm like as a coach or sponsor or anything I would say, no way. That's drug seeking activity.

Judy Atchison: There is no reason why anybody would need to go to TikTok, YouTube, wherever to learn how to take their harm reduction meds. You are taught at the doctor's office, at the primary care office. Some places you have to go to a clinic. Are there places that take advantage of folks? Yes, yes. However, showing somebody how they're tearing the strip and putting it under their tongue and going through that process, that's, my perspective, that is that person getting a high from the responses people give them. It's not the strip that got torn and placed under the tongue or the pill. It's that response of all the comments coming across the bottom of the screen. Back to the concept that when you're sober, behaviorally changes happen. It's not just the drug or the alcohol.

Damon Frank: And not only that, I'm going to say this too, is that you know, just because you get sober, you're not emotionally sober a lot of the times. You're not working a program of recovery. And I think the other thing, the other myth I want to dispel here is that people believe that if MAT really works, they don't need a program of recovery. That they are somehow relapse proof that once they've taken MAT and weaned off that they're just good to go. Like the people believe in rehabs. I'm good, I went to rehab, I'm good to go.

Judy Atchison: Right. There's not one thing that's going to fix the disease of addiction because it's multi-parts to it. It's not just the actual pill. It's why did you take the pill? What has happened throughout your life that you don't want to feel? Who are you and why is this happening? So if you take the drug away, you're still going to have all of these questions that you're not going to get the answer to. You know, and we have to look at ourselves. That was the hardest part of me getting clean was I thought there's no way in hell. No way in hell. I don't want to look at any of that. But I had to.

Damon Frank: Yeah. And you know, I think I think just like we've seen with mental health, and I say, you know, and every therapist I talk to now that's on the show or I know personally, I say, you know, the great thing about addiction recovery is it's becoming a mental health discussion. It's not just becoming a something's wrong with you, you don't drink or use drugs like normal people, right? It's not becoming that weird thing that was over, it's becoming a bigger mental health discussion. And I love that. And you know, along those lines, I want to talk about the success stories that you've seen on this, right? Because just like with mental health, I have dealt with people, we do shows on bipolar disorder, borderline personality, all kinds of things because it's important for people to understand that although there are certain things that work in recovery that are kind of time and true, I would say, showing up and doing the work and that kind of stuff. Everybody's journey is a little bit different. And physically things might be going on with you that are not going on with the person sitting next to you in the chair, right? And I think that people that if you've been sober more than 10 years, this is a hard concept because if you got sober over 10 years ago, it's like people weren't really talking about this as much as accepting. Now I see mental health meds, things like that, people are like, yeah, you know, it works for you. We've seen you bipolar without them and sober and we've seen you sober with them, you know. So I think it's the same thing with MAT. And I'd love for you to share any success stories that you've seen, you know, that it really works for. The type of people that it really works for.

Judy Atchison: Yes. So one in particular, drug of choice was pills that he got prescribed through a doctor. He also did, he would follow the pills up with the Ativan and then he would drink. Okay. So he decided to start on subs and he was on, it's not the max dose anymore, but what we thought was the max dose. He started there and I was there when all that happened. He continued to do the other drugs that weren't even being prescribed that he was buying off the street. Okay, so his drug of choice he got as a prescription, but all the other stuff he got on the street. So showing the harm reduction part. So I worked with him, I have followed him for five and a half years now. He takes a quarter of a 2 milligram strip of the buprenorphine. He does not take any type of Ativan, that whole entire drug class. He doesn't drink alcohol. And he has a wife which he found at age 47 and the daughter that he had that he couldn't be with, he is now with because, sad, her mother also struggled. So he was able to take care of her and he got her back because that mom died. So this is somebody who probably in the next six to eight months, he's going to be off of it. Now, is it easy? No. And this is where everybody, it's like, well, that's why don't try it. No, it's not easy. But if you're going to therapy, if you're talking to your doctors, if you have a we, you can do it. And I've seen people do it over and over again. I mean there was one girl, oh my god, love her. 27 years old. She came off of the highest dose that I've ever seen and she did the taper herself. And she is the most happy, successful person. This was a person who was doing 60 bags of heroin a day.

Damon Frank: And you know we have people in the community, I believe it because we have people in the community in Recovered Life that go every day on the TikToks or in the chat and they have and one just went off MAT. Right, just went off MAT. And when I hear her story I was like, man, I don't know honestly if I could have done what you did. The story you have. You know, and I don't know, Judy, do you think possibly that maybe the future of chronic relapsing especially with hard drugs, street drugs, that this is it? That this maybe is the solution?

Judy Atchison: I believe it is. My perspective is that it is, but we live in a world of stigma. And the stigma of having the disease of addiction and then the stigma of using drugs, I think it makes it hard. If more doctors prescribed it, if more people talked about it like we're talking about it now, yes, I believe that it can help. It can help to stop when you're clean for 20 years and you have to take some type of an opiate, when you're done taking that, you can take Naltrexone which is going to block any craving that is there until that craving goes away.

Damon Frank: Yeah, and you're not going to be able to stay sober long-term in your life without going to a surgery, having emergency situation where you're right? And I think this is the black and white thinking that curses the alcoholic in recovery that I think we need to be open. Now with that being said, we know it's not for everybody either. That sometimes this is over-pushed, right? I've seen it over-pushed like really? I don't really think you need that, right? But you know and that you can emotionally heal and do the work while you're on MAT. And I think that this is the big thing, the big takeaway here and that's why I wanted to do this. Because I didn't know. And you know, I've been sober a long time, you've been sober a long time. Like you don't know. You don't know. And the scary thing is there's people running around telling people not to do this and they don't really know the whole story.

Judy Atchison: No. No. And I understand people's fear, I understand their confusion and I was there, okay. However I myself was put on a, now when I was on it back in 2007, I was in treatment and they started me on, I don't know what dose because I was high, but they started me on a dose and they tapered me down over 10 days or 14 days. Okay. I was then in treatment for six months after that because it wasn't just taking the buprenorphine and being able to not crave as much. It was about everything else. It was about being a mom of young kids. How in the hell was I going to go home and raise kids? It was about all of that stuff.

Damon Frank: Yes. And I'm glad that you're saying that, you know, because I think there is this physical component and then there's the rest of the sobriety, right? The emotional sobriety, the spiritual connection, all that other kind of stuff. Final thoughts here, Judy, with anybody who might be struggling with this that you know, they're maybe going to rooms, they're encountering people that are telling them they're not sober, they're not doing it right. What do you say to them?

Judy Atchison: Remember that those of us in the rooms, we are not the experts and everybody has an opinion. I say go to your primary care. If your primary care doesn't do this type of healthcare, go online, go on Google and type in doctors or practitioners that do addiction med. You will find a person. Go and talk. Just because you talk doesn't mean that you have to start anything. At least find out from the expert what options you have. And there's been many times that I've explained it to folks and they're like, thanks but no thanks. And that's perfectly fine. But that's who we need to get the information from. The doctors, the prescribers, the experts.

Damon Frank: Yeah, absolutely. And I think also talking to other people that are on MAT. I think that is good too. And I think as this gets more prevalent, I think there'll be more communities that have it. That's why with our community, we're like, you're welcome. Yes, of course you're welcome. People have asked me and I wanted to do this and Judy, thank you so much because I wanted to do this because it just broke my heart because I would see people come in and I would get to know them and then they said, hey, I just want to let you know, I'm tapering off of MAT, I've been doing this for a year, right? And am I welcome here? And I was like, man, of course you're welcome here. Of course you're welcome here. And that's the message that I wanted to get out. Although it's not perfect and that you know, I can tell you who does this perfectly. I don't know anybody who does sobriety perfectly. I don't even know why you'd want to. But there is hope. There is hope. And I just wanted to let people know that you know, in my community at least you are welcome. You are welcome if you're on MAT. Judy, thank you. I so appreciate you. Guys, we're going to put links about how you can contact Judy in there. And then guys, if you are not a Plus subscriber at Recovered Life TV or on TikTok a subscriber, you're going to want, you're going to miss this because we're doing an after the show segment with her and it's going to be great. We're going to go even deeper into some of the questions that people have. Thank you Judy. Thanks so much. Great episode.

Judy Atchison: Thank you for having me.